Weed appreciation

[Deleted]

I haven't done a character analysis in a long time, and this really isn't one, but I was thinking about the topic while in the shower. GWD anime was my first introduction to Ginga as a whole. I enjoyed it, and was thrilled to tiny pieces when I found out there was ANOTHER anime, GNG. Naturally I watched GNG as soon as I got my grubby little hands on the links from youtube, and at the time, was down right offended. Offended about what you may ask? Well, about how much cooler Gin was. At the time, I thought Weed was, for lack of a better word, a huge puss. He avoided fights, whined a fair bit at the first and was generally a push over of sorts. But Gin was cool, he was killing dudes and fighting bad guys!

Recently looking back, I noticed how much of an asshat Gin is. He basically inserts himself into the ranks of the dogs, doesn't listen, and is constantly willing to throw down at the slightest hint of someone dissing his "honour". Gin never listens to orders,ever, because he knows best, and constantly fights people's battles for them. Heck, if Gin didn't turn out to be "the good guy", GNG would have been a great story of an evil little twerp infiltrating the ranks of a respect pack and taking it over by what is basically force.

But then, looking at Weed, I realize how much more mature he is, even at a young age. Weed is willing to listen and see the point of view of others, even if it doesn't align with his own, and he sees the good in everyone. I doubt Gin would have spared Blue, the doberman brothers, or even Jerome and Rocket. Weed doesn't force himself on others and doesn't seem to expect people to listen to him just because he is the son of the leader, he earns their trust and respect through his actions. Unlike Gin, Weed tries his best to resolve conflicts without resorting to fighting. Hell, he is even willing to let Hougen do at the end of his arc (in the anime, not sure about the manga). When I was a kid,  I thought Weed was stupid for doing stuff like that. How could he let the bad guys go? Only know do I realize how much more mature and understanding Weed has to be to be willing to look past the fact that these dogs are trying to kill him, giving them a fair chance to redeem themselves. He never berates, insults or judges them for their decisions (unless they really screw up), and I honestly, if I had to pick who I would follow, it would be Weed, Gin would probably murder me if I didn't agree with him.

Anyway, that was a long winded way of saying: Good job Weed for not being your father.

[Kit]

YES, thank you thank you thank you! I may post my own rant here, a little later. (I have to go out, very soon.) But I just wanted to take a minute to express my appreciation for this post. You summed up my own feelings on Weed vs Gin quite well.

[Deleted]

Nov 28, 2015 15:33:00 GMT -7 Kit said:

YES, thank you thank you thank you! I may post my own rant here, a little later. (I have to go out, very soon.) But I just wanted to take a minute to express my appreciation for this post. You summed up my own feelings on Weed vs Gin quite well.

You should! Your thoughts are always much more well written then mine, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[Deleted]

Hmm okay, first of all I didn't read GDW, only watched the anime, so I know I know maybe 10% of what GDW (and Weed) is. And half of it is wrong.

BUT!

Based only on the anime, I still dislike Weed for pretty much the same reasons you didn't like him at first. Being compassionate and mature is one thing, and yes, he doesn't disregard hierarchy like Gin does. That's something I can appreciate. But Weed is naive and deluded to the point of idiocy and beyond. Fine, try to see the good in everyone, I have nothing against that. But from what I see in the anime, Weed lives in his own world where everyone's good. The thing is, since he's the leader, his delusions are really dangerous the the survival of the rest of the pack. Like letting Thunder and Lector go, so they could give Hougen intelligence and possibly come back. Or even Hougen himself, who SAID he'd be back for revenge. If it wasn't for a fortuitous deus ex machina, the whole Hougen arc could have happened all over again. And it would have been Weed's fault.

Being mature also means that you have to understand the world is not a pretty place like you wish it was, and Weed clearly isn't there yet.

[M-92 Mantis]

I'm just going to say in advance to any randos or newbies that no actual furious rants about hating Weed. I know in the olden days of the fandom, calling Weed a "pussy" or a "stupid brat" and wishing him a violent death were the norm, but it's not welcome here. If you want, make a thread about Gin appreciation, and only discuss things about Weed here without being mindlessly angry about him. I don't know if the fandom is still hilariously angry over Weed's existence, but if they are, keep your debates to mature and reasonable discussions, not flaming on Weed. Same goes for Gin - no flaming on Gin in here. I'm just letting people not regular to our site know so we keep it from becoming a kingdom of angry shitposting. I'm only saying this because when I was a kid, even I was tired of there being entire topics of people agreeing how horrible and stupid and ugly and annoying Weed was without giving any actual opinions or discussions other than feeling a cringy hatred for a fictional character.

TL;DR This thread is obviously made for fans of Weed, not telling people how they're wrong about being fans of Weed. Go make a Gin fans thread if you want to talk about Gin

Nov 29, 2015 0:23:48 GMT -7 @bucciamarcia said:

Like letting Thunder and Lector go, so they could give Hougen intelligence and possibly come back. Or even Hougen himself, who SAID he'd be back for revenge. If it wasn't for a fortuitous deus ex machina, the whole Hougen arc could have happened all over again. And it would have been Weed's fault.

I totally agree with the Lecter and Thunder issue on Weed letting his stubbornness for compassion get in the way of the better outcome, but didn't Gin let Kurojaki and Sniper live after he defeated them? That was pretty stupid too, seeing how neither were emotionally moved by it and became a continuous issue like Lecter and Thunder (unless this didn't happen in the anime, I didn't see the anime so ignore me). I think people forget about those moments because GDW made it a point to show that Weed was wrong and a lot of Ohu didn't agree with him (Kyoushirou, maybe Hiro? Someone else agreed with Jerome about it).

The anime did do it terribly, and like you said, a lot of Weed's actual personality was just changed to "childish kid who wants everyone to be happy and get along" instead of his manga depiction. Weed had a temper and was absolutely obstinate about not forgiving people for their heinous crimes, and he would lash out or defend himself when necessary against opponents. So anyone only going by the anime can only see a lamer version of Weed, even though I still liked him, but I never agreed with him showing mercy to Lecter and Thunder since it was obvious they wouldn't listen. In the manga, they actually did, so the anime kind of ruined the entire meaning of Weed and Jerome's disagreement since the enemies Jerome killed were different.

[Deleted]

Nov 29, 2015 0:42:40 GMT -7 M-92 Mantis said:

I'm just going to say in advance to any randos or newbies that no actual furious rants about hating Weed. I know in the olden days of the fandom, calling Weed a "pussy" or a "stupid brat" and wishing him a violent death were the norm, but it's not welcome here. If you want, make a thread about Gin appreciation, and only discuss things about Weed here without being mindlessly angry about him. I don't know if the fandom is still hilariously angry over Weed's existence, but if they are, keep your debates to mature and reasonable discussions, not flaming on Weed. Same goes for Gin - no flaming on Gin in here. I'm just letting people not regular to our site know so we keep it from becoming a kingdom of angry shitposting. I'm only saying this because when I was a kid, even I was tired of there being entire topics of people agreeing how horrible and stupid and ugly and annoying Weed was without giving any actual opinions or discussions other than feeling a cringy hatred for a fictional character.

TL;DR This thread is obviously made for fans of Weed, not telling people how they're wrong about being fans of Weed. Go make a Gin fans thread if you want to talk about Gin

TLDR don't do what Togo does.

Nov 29, 2015 0:42:40 GMT -7 M-92 Mantis said:

I totally agree with the Lecter and Thunder issue on Weed letting his stubbornness for compassion get in the way of the better outcome, but didn't Gin let Kurojaki and Sniper live after he defeated them? That was pretty stupid too, seeing how neither were emotionally moved by it and became a continuous issue like Lecter and Thunder (unless this didn't happen in the anime, I didn't see the anime so ignore me). I think people forget about those moments because GDW made it a point to show that Weed was wrong and a lot of Ohu didn't agree with him (Kyoushirou, maybe Hiro? Someone else agreed with Jerome about it).

True, and in those moment I dislike Gin just as much as Weed. But at least Weed doesn't let Akakabuto live, or ban Ben/Akame for killing Sniper/Kurojaki (indirectly), and he's the one who wants to kill Hougen at the end of GDW. I'm sure there are more examples in the wolf arc. There are some things I like about Weed, like how he's always respectful of others, but in general he isn't my favourite character.

Nov 29, 2015 0:42:40 GMT -7 M-92 Mantis said:

The anime did do it terribly, and like you said, a lot of Weed's actual personality was just changed to "childish kid who wants everyone to be happy and get along" instead of his manga depiction. Weed had a temper and was absolutely obstinate about not forgiving people for their heinous crimes, and he would lash out or defend himself when necessary against opponents. So anyone only going by the anime can only see a lamer version of Weed, even though I still liked him, but I never agreed with him showing mercy to Lecter and Thunder since it was obvious they wouldn't listen. In the manga, they actually did, so the anime kind of ruined the entire meaning of Weed and Jerome's disagreement since the enemies Jerome killed were different.

Well, I guess I'll know once I finally read GDW. And I'd like to read more about the Lecter and Thunder thing, maybe a translated snippet here could help?

[M-92 Mantis]

Nov 29, 2015 1:59:46 GMT -7 @bucciamarcia said:

Nov 29, 2015 0:42:40 GMT -7 M-92 Mantis said:

I'm just going to say in advance to any randos or newbies that no actual furious rants about hating Weed. I know in the olden days of the fandom, calling Weed a "pussy" or a "stupid brat" and wishing him a violent death were the norm, but it's not welcome here. If you want, make a thread about Gin appreciation, and only discuss things about Weed here without being mindlessly angry about him. I don't know if the fandom is still hilariously angry over Weed's existence, but if they are, keep your debates to mature and reasonable discussions, not flaming on Weed. Same goes for Gin - no flaming on Gin in here. I'm just letting people not regular to our site know so we keep it from becoming a kingdom of angry shitposting. I'm only saying this because when I was a kid, even I was tired of there being entire topics of people agreeing how horrible and stupid and ugly and annoying Weed was without giving any actual opinions or discussions other than feeling a cringy hatred for a fictional character.

TL;DR This thread is obviously made for fans of Weed, not telling people how they're wrong about being fans of Weed. Go make a Gin fans thread if you want to talk about Gin

TLDR don't do what Togo does.

Nah, I didn't mean you, I just posted my heads up once I got home and I had saved it as a draft at work . I meant mainly that since this thread's purpose is for Weed fans, I didn't want people to assume that meant come in here and go "well I don't like him" and just leave it at that. It's really up to the OP, @kaiju , is she wants a lot of discussion about Weed and Gin's pros and cons or to just leave it as a thread solely for Weed.

As for Weed with the mercy, I still do agree that Gin was more "I cannot allow you to live" in a way that he knew he could not let more innocent lives be taken by Akakabuto and such. In the manga, when Kyoushirou and some of Ohu disagree with Weed's choice, I BELIEVE they point out the problem about mercy being used too much, even though it's funny because if it wasn't for Weed's mercy, Kyoushirou, Rocket and Toubei would not have ever been allowed to join Ohu. There's differences again in the manga since to me, Ken and Kage also go under there because

SPOILER: Click to show

they actually were very aggressive towards Weed and both of their sides believed they were doing what was right and the other was wrong, but Kage specifically believed Gin's leadership was awful because he had let Ohu become a dump and Tokimune (who they thought was Gin) was killing Ohu families who dared to go near the Twin Pass. So in a sense, that could have been considered mutiny, but Weed grew to be friends with Ken and Kage, Kage whom even had stopped believing in Gin.

As for a snippet on Lecter and Thunder, it would have to be pretty huge since it spans from the final fight with those two, because in the manga, they both agree to leave and don't come back. I would have to do instead the other enemies Jerome actually killed, but they're also kinda built up beforehand so people might be confused who they are. I WAS thinking about doing the part where Jerome and Weed live after being trapped in the icy river and Jerome thinks he's going to die and tells Weed how much he loves him and how he's sorry and stuff and he and Weed make up, only because the Weed/Jerome separation scene is really long since the rest of Ohu are seeing who is and isn't against Weed's decision, if that helps.

[Deleted]

I would love to see discussion, it was one of the reasons I made the thread. I'm pretty tired of people going "I like this character/don't like this character" and leaving it at that. It doesn't really add anything to the forum or the fandom. You don't have to like Weed, and I never even said Weed was my favourite, I was just pointing out that this weird hate for him that people have because he is nice is sort of dumb, considering Gin is a giant tool through out most of GNG.

TLDR: Discuss away!

[Kit]

Okay, thoughts it is.

The thing I find weirdest about Weed hate is that I think if he were in any other fandom, he would be very well liked. He's sweet, empathetic, and respectful to other people, which are traits that people generally look up to and enjoy. However he's in a fandom where his sensitivity and morals are constantly questioned because Yoshi writes his villains so irredeemably black and white evil, and then expects everyone to feel like Weed's way of thinking is completely natural and believable, which makes him come of as the Purity Sue that can rub a lot of people wrong. I have seen anime/manga with protagonists who do not believe in killing and think being kind is the correct course, and it works out well because the villains are not black and white pure evil. (For example, I do not believe that Hougen's backstory is enough to make him sympathetic, when it is barely mentioned and felt more tacked-on than anything.) Yes, a lot of people's impressions were strictly from the anime, which I felt was trying to cast Weed in a worse light, a lot of the time. But that's a whole other rant.

When you psychoanalyze Weed, he is actually quite a sad character and his actions make a bit more sense. He lived out in the wilds with his mother slowly wasting away, and not knowing anything of the real world outside of her stories of a romanticized father who was unparalleled in kindness, and ran a literal paradise. That's how he assumed the world was and should be. However when he got there, he was shoved into a war, where he was - quite frankly - peer pressured into being the leader of an army simply because he looked like his dad. He even tried to say no, but just got the "It'll be fine, your dad did it," spiel, as if blood is enough to give you experience and knowledge of war or leading an entire army against hopeless odds. Again, this kid's only life experience was trying and failing to support his mom with the bare minimum of food, and hearing about how kindness prevails and the ideal for a world where everyone deserved to be given a chance for happiness in the dog paradise. He didn't even know how to fight, much less think about what war demanded of someone.

You could argue that Weed should have learned, which I agree with to a certain point, (true character development is kind of nonexistent in Ginga, for everyone) but again, he is a kid. Gin had been hardened and taught to be somewhat of a weapon against Akakabuto, from a very young age, so his adapting to war makes much more sense. A normal sheltered kid in a warzone is not going to comprehend everything going on. Again, there is a major flaw in the writing that creates a bit of an overall conundrum for any point of view, in that Weed is so firm to hold onto his beliefs when he was ignorant to war and everyone is telling him differently. But you could also argue that seeing that stuff reinforced his views on how the world should be like his mom said. Is it realistic or believable? Probably not. But again, that is a writing flaw - not necessarily something that should be disregarded about Weed's character as a whole.

As an actual leader, like @kaiju said, Weed is compassionate and respectful towards his troops, and puts them first. I feel that one of his strong points is asking everyone's opinions and tips to put together plans that make use of everyone's different strengths, and he takes their personalities into account as to what they would be good or bad at. I also feel that he tried to build his stratagem around what would keep the most amount of people safe. Something I felt extremely refreshing and respectable, since I found GNG as a whole a bit too "YOLO, LOL!" in how the troops behaved and approached things. Weed believed in being ready to face the consequences of a bad situation, but not being suicidal. It's counterproductive, a cruel thing to expect of your friends, and really isn't what Ohu stands for. (Though Ohu is extremely bipolar about this, at times, anyway.) When he recruits, he doesn't rush into beating them into submission (If I may take a minute to cough and give a character a meaningful look, here.) but rather talks to them and explains what is going on and why they want their aid; what their goals are, etc. Sometimes it still ends up as a fight, but nothing really comes to mind where that was truly Weed's fault. It may be just me, but I find this a way more realistic and productive way to form alliances.

Even when he lets people go, I do believe that Weed is prepared to take care of them all over again, should they actually come back - which thinking about it, they more often than not join up with Ohu than trying to go against it again. I'll just use the most controversial anime scene as an example, even though I know the manga is very different. Lecter and Thunder came back, and Weed showed no hesitation in beating the shit out of them again (which he did very easily) to defend himself and his friends. He made sure to leave them incapacitated, without teeth to do any damage to anyone ever again, and no legitimate option to go back to Hougen. Ohu moved around constantly, so it's not like Lecter and Thunder had any base to reveal, (Hougen seemed to find out where they were quite often and do nothing about it, anyway, like when they were headed to Shiga and he just laughed it off as kids teaming up with other kids) and without any info or use, Hougen would have killed them like he does everyone else. They'd be stupid to go back to him, and they'd be stupid to challenge Ohu again, by themselves. I know it showed them muttering about doing so, but really, it wouldn't have worked. It's my personal opinion that Weed took these things into consideration before letting them go, but that's debatable. Especially since that scene made no sense on multiple levels for either side of the argument, anyway.

I think I'm gonna stop there, since this has gone on long enough, but basically tl;dr, I am pro Weed, and respect and sympathize with him on quite a few levels.

Edit: @bucciamarcia I already had the conversation with the dogs Jerome kills planned, before Weed deems to let them go. I might do the actual banishment at some point, but probably not, since I feel it's too impactful a scene to spoil fully.

[Deleted]

Ohh Kit, valid points there. I already knew your opinion, but I admit you're almost starting to change my mind. Almost. I have a thick skull. I certainly sympathize more with Weed now than I did 10 minutes ago.

Nov 29, 2015 15:28:34 GMT -7 Kit said:

Okay, thoughts it is.

The thing I find weirdest about Weed hate is that I think if he were in any other fandom, he would be very well liked. He's sweet, empathetic, and respectful to other people, which are traits that people generally look up to and enjoy. However he's in a fandom where his sensitivity and morals are constantly questioned because Yoshi writes his villains so irredeemably black and white evil, and then expects everyone to feel like Weed's way of thinking is completely natural and believable, which makes him come of as the Purity Sue that can rub a lot of people wrong. I have seen anime/manga with protagonists who do not believe in killing and think being kind is the correct course, and it works out well because the villains are not black and white pure evil. (For example, I do not believe that Hougen's backstory is enough to make him sympathetic, when it is barely mentioned and felt more tacked-on than anything.) Yes, a lot of people's impressions were strictly from the anime, which I felt was trying to cast Weed in a worse light, a lot of the time. But that's a whole other rant.

That's true to a certain extent, but Weed's so sweet that he's going to give me diabetes. Aka too much of a good thing. It might also be because I don't like the typical "good" hero (also because my personal vision of the world is very... "blue"), those are traits I can appreciate as I said. Nothing wrong in being empathetic and respectful. But it's because his opponents are black and white that he feels so out of place. He's so kind that he's borderline unrealistic, and makes decisions so dumb that I wonder how he managed to get Ohu back from Hougen. These traits are good for a ruler to have in peacetime, but in wartime, Weed feels out of place like a turtle on a post:



To me, he sees the world black and white just like Hougen. His backstory is obviously more developed, but he fails to understand the situation he's in and act accordingly.

Nov 29, 2015 15:28:34 GMT -7 Kit said:

When you psychoanalyze Weed, he is actually quite a sad character and his actions make a bit more sense. He lived out in the wilds with his mother slowly wasting away, and not knowing anything of the real world outside of her stories of a romanticized father who was unparalleled in kindness, and ran a literal paradise. That's how he assumed the world was and should be. However when he got there, he was shoved into a war, where he was - quite frankly - peer pressured into being the leader of an army simply because he looked like his dad. He even tried to say no, but just got the "It'll be fine, your dad did it," spiel, as if blood is enough to give you experience and knowledge of war or leading an entire army against hopeless odds. Again, this kid's only life experience was trying and failing to support his mom with the bare minimum of food, and hearing about how kindness prevails and the ideal for a world where everyone deserved to be given a chance for happiness in the dog paradise. He didn't even know how to fight, much less think about what war demanded of someone.

Okay, yes, you make a valid point here. This does explain why Weed is like this, and it was Ohu's fault for appointing him as leader without a second thought. But while this explains why he's making decisions that make no sense, he still does make them. True, he's a pup who has no idea what war is like, and grew up alone with his mom who died in front of his eyes. And true, he shouldn't be the leader of Ohu and he didn't even want to be put in charge. That actually makes me like him a bit more, but that doesn't change what he did.

Nov 29, 2015 15:28:34 GMT -7 Kit said:

You could argue that Weed should have learned, which I agree with to a certain point, (true character development is kind of nonexistent in Ginga, for everyone) but again, he is a kid. Gin had been hardened and taught to be somewhat of a weapon against Akakabuto, from a very young age, so his adapting to war makes much more sense. A normal sheltered kid in a warzone is not going to comprehend everything going on. Again, there is a major flaw in the writing that creates a bit of an overall conundrum for any point of view, in that Weed is so firm to hold onto his beliefs when he was ignorant to war and everyone is telling him differently. But you could also argue that seeing that stuff reinforced his views on how the world should be like his mom said. Is it realistic or believable? Probably not. But again, that is a writing flaw - not necessarily something that should be disregarded about Weed's character as a whole.

Well, I don't know if and how Weed develops during GDW after the Hougen arc. But the anime covers a time span too short to see too much of a radical change in Weed's beliefs, especially at such a young age (where you're bound to see the world black and white and not learn from your mistakes), so the fact he hardly develops at all isn't too unrealistic to me.

Nov 29, 2015 15:28:34 GMT -7 Kit said:

Even when he lets people go, I do believe that Weed is prepared to take care of them all over again, should they actually come back - which thinking about it, they more often than not join up with Ohu than trying to go against it again. I'll just use the most controversial anime scene as an example, even though I know the manga is very different. Lecter and Thunder came back, and Weed showed no hesitation in beating the shit out of them again (which he did very easily) to defend himself and his friends. He made sure to leave them incapacitated, without teeth to do any damage to anyone ever again, and no legitimate option to go back to Hougen. Ohu moved around constantly, so it's not like Lecter and Thunder had any base to reveal, (Hougen seemed to find out where they were quite often and do nothing about it, anyway, like when they were headed to Shiga and he just laughed it off as kids teaming up with other kids) and without any info or use, Hougen would have killed them like he does everyone else. They'd be stupid to go back to him, and they'd be stupid to challenge Ohu again, by themselves. I know it showed them muttering about doing so, but really, it wouldn't have worked. It's my personal opinion that Weed took these things into consideration before letting them go, but that's debatable. Especially since that scene made no sense on multiple levels for either side of the argument, anyway.

I don't really think he considered all that before letting them go, that's just trying to find a complicated way to justify an outright bad decision to me. Weed's intel about Hougen's base is extremely limited, he has no idea what's going to happen (he doesn't know he has plot armor), and there are so many things that can go wrong. He already is in a dire situation with tiny chances of success, why give his enemy another possible advantage? I simply think he let them go because his vision of the world is so black and white, he really believes there's good in everyone and Thunder and Lecter will join their side. It's so black and white, in fact, that we all see how he reacts when a soldier kills another soldier during war. And from what I saw, he was prepared to do the same if Tesshin and Kage (was it Kage?) had killed Genba instead of just incapacitated him.