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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 12:35:01 GMT -7
After reading some comments on Chapter 28, it sort of made me wonder about Cross as a character and her role in GNG, so I am making this post to try and figure out how she fits into the story. This is a very poorly written rant and I am so sorry. Cross has always sort of confused me in the way that Yoshi didn't seem to know what he wanted to do with her as a character. When we first meet her, she seems strong, brave and is praised for being an talented hunter. Being the only female in the pack, one could assume she must have good enough fighting skills to even be considered into the pack after she became a stay. Cross has even fought a bear in defense of her old owner. So overall, she seems like a good female character when we look at her briefly, but her actions reduce her to merely a token plot devise. In one of the only fights we see Cross in, she does extremely poorly, getting pinned and becoming useless nearly as soon as the fight starts against the Kai. But why? Besides being a more slender breed, Cross has fought bears, presumably other dogs and should be strong due to her hunting for the pack. Yet she can't do anything against one male dog. To me, this makes little sense, and the excuse used is "She is female", but this makes no sense when we look at the fact she is a trained hunting dog, just like John, yet is much much weaker and less competent in a fight then any other dog in the army (besides maybe Hyena) despite her agile-ness during hunting and her training. Being female might make her slightly smaller, but shouldn't affect her to THAT degree. Some could suggest it is because she is pregnant, but it is unclear if she is at this point in the manga if she even is. Mathematically as littlekistune1 pointed out here she must have been pregnant during this fight, yet her pregnancy doesn't even come into play until she is being harassed by three males much later in chapter 28. But if pregnancy WAS making her useless later in the comic and she wasn't pregnant during the Kai fight(which is unlikely), then why is she such a bad fighter in the early volumes simply because she is female? In Chapter 28 and onward, Cross becomes utterly useless, granted, I understand why after having the puppies, but even before then she basically lays down and nearly lets herself get assaulted because "Oh no I am pregnant what ever can I do?" and a dachshund has to save her in chapter 28. Maybe she didn't want to risk damaging her unborn, but if this was the case why did she get into a fight with the Kai? Dogs begin to start showing the symptoms Cross is describing in chapter 28(teats showing) about 14-15 days after becoming pregnant. In theory, this would make sense, Ben has been gone for two weeks. BUT, Cross has the puppies in the next volume( I do believe), and almost two months did not go by in that time, so unless she had the puppies extremely early, Cross had to be pregnant long before she started mentioning it. So pregnancy wasn't, or shouldn't have been such an issue for her (I mean she has had puppies before, it's not like she is a new mother). In fact she could have been pregnant when she first met Gin, yet acts completely normal and hot headed, as said before, even getting into fights, so she obviously wasn't worried about hurting her pups. So the only "excuse" it seems for her terrible fighting and uselessness is she is female. Even if all the evidence( trained hunting dog, only female allowed in the army, hunts for the pack, holds a high position and the rest of the males respect her) says she should be just as competent as any male. As with many of Yoshi's female characters, they are only there to serve has A) Mother's to pups of main characters, or B) A way to drive the plot forward( mostly likely the female is in trouble and brave males have to save her). All in all, I feel like Cross had a lot of potential at first, but was just reduce to a way for Ben to have a son for the next generation of the manga.
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Post by M-92 Mantis on Mar 30, 2014 14:29:49 GMT -7
I agree 100% with everything you brought up. I'm not saying Cross being the favorite female is a misunderstood opinion - in the anime, as far as I know, her 'pregnancy' wasn't a lame excuse for Yoshi to try and remove all of her past skills as a hunter and even a bear hound, but I don't watch the anime so I'm not entirely sure. And with GDW, the females like Reika and Koyuki and even Sakura aren't shown in their entirety, but Yoshi actually gave them really strong personalities and roles, when you're able to read the manga.
I also loved Cross. Me and Kit talked about this frequently with these recent chapters. If Cross was huge and waddling, it might make sense she wouldn't be as energetic, or she'd be an easier target. However, there is no excuse for her just instantly giving up even trying to RUN from two generic goons. Like you said, she proved herself to be just as strong as the males accepted into Ohu, which isn't done lightly. But after her debut, Yoshi now has this dogmatic urge to try and make her less and less of a warrior, and finds it easy to blame it on pregnancy.
I'm not saying she should've gone to war or fight while pregnant; that's incredibly selfish and not what a mother should do when she has unborn children inside her. But during her very first appearance, when the dogs weren't as stylized as Gin, Cross looks very... mannish, but starts to get her cuter eyes, like Fuji has. My theory is that Yoshi tried making her a male at first, but maybe was requested to add one female character, like he was requested about the wolf arc. Since he flat-out hated adding the wolves, I have no clue how he feels about Cross, but I think he got tired of her, since he's not exactly fond of women who aren't being protected by their own children or being blubbering flaps of cardboard.
Cross did have a lot of potential. She had a personality, or as much of a personality as Yoshi could do, but when he got disinterested in her being as strong and at the same rank as Ohu male soldiers, I don't know if he was ever okay with that. I think the pregnancy idea popped out of nowhere, resulting in this huge mess of him having Cross ignore she's pregnant, until now, just because Moss mentioned it, earlier.
My frustration over Cross becoming a messenger girl (and not even being thanked or exalted for her dedication, not even by the narration bubbles) doesn't go directly to Cross. I can be angry how Cross will say completely stupid things like "If only I could run from these guys..." but, not ever explaining WHY SHE DOESN'T, or why she wouldn't want to risk hurting her pups if she fought them, yet tries to drown herself twice. I'm angry at Yoshi, because if Cross was an attempt to gain some female readers or balance out the cast, he basically has shown he didn't care about that, and tried rewriting a character with loopholes and absolutely no backup for his excuses, just to get a female out of the battlefield.
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Post by Kit on Mar 30, 2014 14:53:54 GMT -7
EDIT: My buddy boy beat me to the punch while I was still typing, so a lot of this is a repeat of what he's said. I LOVE this thread, because Cross is a very popular character among fans, yet we never really hear... why. Aside from "she's a fighting female" but for the reasons above this is a very moot point, since she kinda fails in the one major fight we see her singled out for. I guess it was partly to show how the Kai brothers were super strong and we want them recruited, but again, why was it necessary to have that "well, she's female..." line in there, then? Bloodykyoushiro also made an interesting point at an earlier chapter's release about how Cross looks quite manly during her first appearance, and we are even led to believe she is male until she gets angry at Ben for his offhanded remark that she's soft on kids because she's a girl. This could lead one to infer the author intended her to be male until either deciding otherwise on a whim, or one of his bosses intervened and told him a female presence was needed for whatever reason. After this apparent decision, Cross's features softened and she began looking more feminine. The same seems to apply to her pregnancy. Perhaps it wasn't planned from the beginning, and was thrown in on a split-second decision by someone, but this isn't an excuse, as it could still have been made believable. It seemed like either they knew nothing about dogs, or just wanted a cheap excuse to get her off the battlefield, for whatever reason. On a more personal note, Cross's personality seemed to suddenly degrade into nothingness as soon as the pregnancy was revealed. Yes, there was a little of that flare in her, with the whole foul mouth and devotion to the mission, but... if that's all a character has, they are immensely one-dimensional and not fun to read at all. Now... one could argue that Ginga has always suffered such characters, which I would agree with - but when one moment, she is having a believable old fear of humans that seems to be effecting her relationship with Ben in an interesting way, and the next we find out she's pregnant while she's moping around waiting for her man, and can't do anything of value to the point that a DACHSHUND of all things has to save her, we know we have a problem. Cross, your teats are showing a little... You are not on the verge of labor with a Buddha belly. You are a SALUKI, of all breeds. If nothing else, run! I promise you will out-speed a couple of goons who are not even trained hunting dogs. And if you can't even do that, well... we have other problems. So this reply may be poorly put together, but my main question is... Why is Cross so popular as some warrior babe, when she can't even do the most basic of things on her own, anymore? If it weren't for Gin in the Kai fight - she'd be dead. If it weren't for Oliver - she'd be assaulted and possibly dead. If it weren't for Benizakura pulling her out of the sea - she'd be dead. If it weren't for Swimmer carrying her back across the sea - she'd be dead. To say nothing of how she is taken to Reima's palace without a fight in the wolf arc, and must be saved. This is not to hate on Cross, of course. But she's is just a neutral "meh" character to me, and not the amazing fighting female people make her out to be. As stated above, she had potential to be a great character, but she just fell flat.
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Post by Kausza on Mar 30, 2014 15:25:44 GMT -7
EDIT: you guys both replied while I was writing this, so there's a little overlap.
I agree.
I like to focus more on the writer's point of view though than the technical perspectives. Yes, she was probably pregnant during the Kai fight, but in Yoshi's mind she probably wasn't. This makes Yoshi's sexism even more blatant on page 303 chapter 13 when he says "Though her spirit was strong, Cross was still female ... her legs were weak from the grip." If you look at the drawing, Chuutora is only gripping her neck; her legs should be completely fine, so this doesn't really make sense. And even though she does resist Gin's help, therefore having an independent personality, her strength and abilities are inferior by nature because she is female according to Yoshi.
In the second case Yoshi obviously intends her to be well in her pregnancy and thus her defenselessness is amplified because her femininity is "coming out". To me that's somewhat justified because pregnant women are really heavy and have a harder time maneuvering, but ... she's not super fat or anything? Maybe he meant her to be and didn't draw it because reasons, I don't know. He also emphasizes the fact that she's unable to swim because this, implied by almost drowning (which to me seems exaggerated--but that's beside the point).
So essentially the more feminine a character is, the less they can fend for themselves physically. I also agree that the female role is used to show the heroism of other characters (protection of women) like in the Kai situation, and both of these things totally goes against the fact that Cross is in the army to begin with like you have pointed out.
Interesting that you note she hunts for the pack. She hunts for the pack and gives them food--seems to be only her and Gin who lift a finger, the rest mope around and wait for the food to arrive. I don't think there are any other hunting scenes except for the Kai and the boar. While she might be respected as a great hunter, in the same way she fulfills the traditional role of a woman by providing for the the men. I'm not sure if that's a relevant cultural standard applicable to Yoshi, since I don't exactly know his background... but it's a possibility.
[something about Yoshi not being maliciously sexist that I deleted but then Kaiju responded to]
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 15:26:15 GMT -7
I never noticed the change in Cross`s appearance until you both mentioned it. I too thought maybe she was meant to be male and something happened that they needed a female character and Cross was the easiest to change, even her name is pretty unisex compared to the other females. Either way, it is disappointing to see what Yoshi did with the character. I remember years ago when I first saw the anime she was my favourite because she was the only female, and I still don`t mind her, but like you both said, she is just sort of all around ``meh``. I doubt he is being sexist out of spite, simply cultural differences, and this was around the 80`s so, times were different then.
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Post by Kausza on Mar 30, 2014 15:44:42 GMT -7
Yoshihiro Takahashi's storywriting in a nutshell (but it's okay, because ... it's a manga)
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Post by M-92 Mantis on Mar 30, 2014 16:17:07 GMT -7
I don't think Cross's portrayal is where I find Yoshi sexist. I believe either his real show of outright hatred was in GDW when the minor females became consistently over-the-top uselessness in protecting themselves or their own children.
Cross is more of a disappointment, and not the one I found revolting just for Yoshi to blatantly say "this is a woman. Therefore she does absolutely nothing and won't even try to defend her children."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 16:40:34 GMT -7
This is sort of off tangent but Hougen`s post above got me thinking. I was hoping with the Lassie manga he was finally going to have a female character with a story all her own but, for some reason he decided that no, this Lassie was male. I suppose one could say that the dog was just given the name Lassie, and it isn`t a retelling of the older stories, but still, changing it to a male dog didn`t seem terribly necessary . But who knows.
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Post by M-92 Mantis on Apr 1, 2014 16:17:47 GMT -7
Sorry, slow reply. I'm so busy this week, lol.
As for Lassie, Yoshi's proven he is pretty bad at understanding English names and the gender some usually go to. Kit was able to prove that one of the goons in GNG is really named Beth, but is a guy. Then there's guys named Sack, Booby, Pink Dragon... not to mention downright awkward names that make no sense.
But Lassie is known for being a female Collie (they'd get male collies to play the role, but that'd actually take research to find out, something Yoshi has never done), so I'm assuming Yoshi liked the idea of Lassie, but couldn't stand the thought of even a minor story character being female. This is odd because Lassie's owner is a woman, and then there's Anju in Anju to Jiroumaru, who has the main human role. Depending on Yoshi's mood, he may add females just for character's sake, or avoid them completely. Lassie is kinda the mixed bag on that one.
I personally believe either Yoshi was just his usual ignorant self and didn't read up ANYTHING on Lassie, or didn't think it'd seem so awkward to make his Lassie a boy. Hopefully when we scanlate the story there might be some information in it to help explain more, but I doubt it. It may have been another editor/publisher request for him to add more females, and like Cross, maybe he didn't exactly like being told that and could've warped it as much as he could, to make readers think 'hey, it's Lassie. Lassie's a girl" or something.
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Post by Kit on Apr 1, 2014 16:32:56 GMT -7
Actually the argument that Lassie is male might be invalid. As far as I know, the only reason fans thought they were male is because they talk using the personal pronoun "boku." However, boku is not exclusively male, as far as personal pronouns go. It's not overly girly, and indeed usually preferred by boys, but it's not strange at all for a girl to use it.
So really, unless I missed something - not having read Lassie in Japanese yet - (s)he can really be either, depending on how you want to see them. I personally see the character as female, right now. But like I said, there may be something else indicating Lassie is male that I don't know about.
2015 edit for potential future readers: Nevermind, Lassie's a dude, bro.
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Genji
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Post by Genji on Jun 1, 2014 7:47:11 GMT -7
Interesting topic. I agree with most of what had been said above. As for me, the problem with Cross is that she starts off as a female fighter than gets the stereotype of "a woman is a mother before all". This is a common thing, but especially in Japanese culture as far as I know. And yes, it is sexism (but the depiction of males dogs in the manga is also sexist for the most part, so everyone gets his share!).
It’s not just about her pregnancy and the fact she does have Ben’s kids at the end of the story. It’s about her whole attitude and speeches in general after the introduction arc. The fact she brings food to the pack, which consist of males expect her, is awfully familiar with what is considered the duty of a housewife in Japan. The moment with Chibi/Tesshin with the Nina dogs chapters also ought to tell you something: "I am a woman after all, I can endure sadness and hatred but I cannot stand the voice of a crying child". Yickes. So, not only she is considered as a mother before a fighter but she also regress thanks to that. She goes from, well capable of handling herself to totally helpless. Wasted potential is plastered all over her character.
It’s like Yoshi just panicked and backpedaled, realizing Cross could not be a female without those stereotypes and reductive views. (Not to mention the bits about strength and abilities) And it’s a shame, because he could have done something great with her, showing that not matter the gender you have, you can be a fighter, be courageous and surpass yourself. All the manga is about that, and it could have really reinforce the intention and make an added value to his story. And prove that he is not grinding the same old cliches/narration structure/goals that most of his predecessors started and his contemporaries continued (perfect example for that is Saint Seiya). But no. Boys be soldiers, girls be mothers or damsels in distress. Choices, yay. So… I can not help but feel mixed about her, and just "meh".
For Lassie, I would be curious to know. But I think the character is male. If you follow the "a woman is a mother" path all the way, and as maternal love is considered the most pure form of love in Japanese culture, there’s fat chances that Yoshi would have a female try to harm a puppy.
(I’m currently re-reading the manga, because it’s been a while since I last check out the scans that were available elsewhere, so I won’t say I got the most complete view, but still.)
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Post by M-92 Mantis on Jun 1, 2014 13:14:28 GMT -7
She goes from, well capable of handling herself to totally helpless. Wasted potential is plastered all over her character. It’s like Yoshi just panicked and backpedaled, realizing Cross could not be a female without those stereotypes and reductive views. (Not to mention the bits about strength and abilities) And it’s a shame, because he could have done something great with her, showing that not matter the gender you have, you can be a fighter, be courageous and surpass yourself. All the manga is about that, and it could have really reinforce the intention and make an added value to his story. I agree with this, entirely. Also the part where the men are just as sexist (or rather, Yoshi's prejudice of stereotypes rather than sexism, most of the time) about how men shouldn't be responsible for their children, or the ones to care for them or raise them gently or with affection like the mothers always do in Ginga. Ginga mothers usually end up being so useless they pressure their own young children into protecting THEM, but fathers don't even have to be expected to stay with the mother and kid to help raise it. Faulty parenting is just as bad, if not worse, than faulty soldiers, and neither gender should matter or leave one with more bias. I have no problem with women not fighting because it's more old-fashioned (in my own stuff I make it gender-neutral because I can't stand most stories trying to drive their point of 'we're all equal' into your head with a hammer and still be cliche, when it's obvious in these times we know men and women are equal), but Yoshi executes that poorly because, like everyone said here, Cross' character, ideals, and personality do a complete 180 just so he can try making her into something new: the girl with a heart of gold who only does what she does to make someone else look better, without any credit being given to her. And when she would normally fight back and demand respect like any other soldier, somehow her ovaries make it so that, with babies in her, she goes completely braindead to the idea of even fleeing, and allows herself to act like she's in no control of anything because she's suddenly pregnant, which would usually be a motivator for a woman to try and defend herself or take care of herself even more. It comes down to also being rather unfair that Cross is kept on the pedstal as being the best female only because she is mentioned to be a soldier, even though it completely disappears in her nature as soon as she's pregnant, because babies inside a woman make her useless to do anything outside of breathing, apparently. If Cross had maintained her strong determination for herself and her own children instead of "I have to do this for Gin because Gin's on a mission!" and she could back up her claims of being rather skilled (aside from the hunting; she used to be a bear hound for Pete's sake), I probably would've continued enjoying her sections, instead of feeling embarrassed that she doesn't even have a single urge to fight or flee when she's going to potentially be assaulted and possibly killed, yet she'll happily try drowning herself twice to swim to and from an island because it's important she does it for the main character. It should be the personality that people like, not just how much battles they can win. While I think there's nothing wrong with a woman to become a mother, nor a woman as a fighter, obviously, the way Yoshi writes it is like using the act of becoming a maternal parent means you are clueless and helpless like the babies are more of a common cold that makes you weaker and more suspectible to losing than a change in your life. If Cross had remained how she was, with compassion to her closest friends but a wildfire when it came to earning respect and fighting, I'd have no issues with her being one of the most iconic women. It really says something, too, when a woman can only be favored in a story if she's bloodthirsty and partakes in violent battles, yet her character and entire being can change at the flip of a coin for some awful rewriting and that somehow doesn't cause any damage for the readers to care about her.
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Genji
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Post by Genji on Jun 1, 2014 15:20:37 GMT -7
I couldn’t agree more with what you said. (Except for this bit: "when it's obvious in these times we know men and women are equal". Sadly, inequalities and stereotypes are still pretty anchored in most societies, but that's another matter.)
I’m not against Cross being a mother (or for any other females in the series). If that’s not all there is to them. I’m also not for female characters to be violent and even more competitive and bloodthirsty than the males. I’m just really tired of seeing motherhood or helplessness being repeatedly used to depict females and their roles when there’s more than to being a walking uterus, child caretaker and fragile thing to be saved. (It's a shame about the men depiction too, though I think it is also related to the cultural context: while mentalities are beginning to change, a lot of persons in Japan still consider normal that it’s the role of the woman, and only hers, to raise children. Those stereotypes must have been even more present back when Yoshi published GNG.)
As for Cross, she could have dropped out of the "fighting" part and just be a hunter, a spy, a scout… or even just a comrade who keeps spirits up, and it wouldn’t have bothered me as much. Just as long as she was standing up for herself and/or doing something relatively useful, whether in a practical way or in a motivational way. But apparently her pregnancy (and the supposed uselessness that comes along with it) is all that matters all of the sudden. And as you perfectly said, it’s not even an event that makes her more determined for herself or her future kids, or even more conscious about her safety and the future, it’s seems to just make her weak and dumb.
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Post by Durango on Sept 26, 2014 11:07:37 GMT -7
Frankly I never gave much thought to Cross' change, since she was never a character I particularly cared for. This is both because her first appearance in the anime was annoying to me, and also because I simply don't care for her breed. So I totally believed that she was as capable fighter as the other dogs – thanks to her flashback fight with the bear – and everyone's admiration of her. During the fight with the Kai brothers I simply assumed that her being so overwhelmed was because the Kai brothers were way too powerful, as Ben kept saying how strong they were and that was why the pack needed them. I assumed Cross was the character that was attacked simply because Gin had a close relationship with her, and that if Smith had been in her place he would have been just as weak and whining. I bought into the idea that the fight was a mean to establish Gin's “superior wit” since he was able to take down one of the dogs that the other pack members wouldn't be able to fight.
Then later on when Cross was again more useless than anything, I did buy into it being because of her pregnancy and that she had become overprotective of her young, because she might feel guilty for abandoning her previous set. I never did like Ben/Cross relationship since it felt like it came out of the blue. I don't remember there being really anything that indicated they were a couple, and when Ben made some remark about Cross' puppies I just sort of thought the puppies were Smith's since those two had more chemistry going on. Oh boy, was I out of everything back in the day! But then again this is coming from a guy who thought for years that Hyena was female and Sniper's mate.. Until I read the manga I had no clue that I was wrong about that too!
But as I said, I didn't really care about her story lines and was generally happy when she didn't make any appearances. I had to just now check her first appearance to confirm that yeap her appearance did change when she was confirmed as female. I probably never would have noticed that had it not been for this thread!
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vitahlani
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Post by vitahlani on Sept 29, 2014 6:03:03 GMT -7
I have a weird love/hate thing for Cross. I personally love her design, breed, and backstory. I hate how she was utilized and how quickly she became irrelevant. I blame Yoshi for that though.
I feel like Cross is a great character just begging to be let out, but Yoshi quashed her and forced her into this weird stereotypical role that she was really unsuited for. Sure, we saw her as a mother in her flashback, but that wasn't all she was. She was a hunting dog first and foremost, and it seemed as though she was the leader at that. I would have loved to have seen her in the final battle with Akakabuto. She had a great setup for a revenge battle with him. A sort of "Because of you, I lost everything!" It also would have lent more credence to the whole "only female in the pack" deal, showing that she actually did deserve to be a soldier of Ohu and that her position was justly earned.
I hate how the more feminine she became, the weaker she became. I am a tomboy, so I am not feminine at all, but I also don't think those who are feminine can't be good or strong characters. Not so in Yoshi's world apparently. She just loses all common sense as the story goes on, and I have absolutely no clue why this is. Honestly, most of the people I've encountered that are fans of the Ginga verse are female, so I don't know if Yoshi is ignorant to his seemingly large female fanbase, or he is just too entrenched in his "manly-men" and "delicate flowers" to care.
So, in short, while I hate what Cross became, I will still love her for the potential she had. I'm sure there are more thoughts I have about this, but I just can't think of them offhand. :oriontroll:
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