GNG Following Anglo-Saxon Values?

[Klomonx]

In my British Writers I class, we're discussing Beowulf, a poem that was passed down orally from about the 2nd century to the 8th, and was written down in the 10th, as far as I've been able to figure. There's a LOT of speculation around exact dates, even the author, who we assume is a cleric, is pretty much unknown. The story is very Germanic in form (it's written in verse, doesn't rhyme, and uses a lot of alliteration. It sounds a lot like marching if you read it aloud) though scholars speculate the one who wrote it down inserted Christianity into the story - so what begins with a Viking-esque burial soon goes on to praise God and Jesus Christ, rather than Odin, Tor, Tyr, Freya, etc. (All of this information was gained from my Professor, or my Norton English Anthology Vol. 1. The version of translated Beowulf I'm reading is by Seamus Heaney).
So at this point you're probably wondering why I bring this up, well it's because after a few days of class discussion...I think I have a secret as to WHY Ginga is so popular in Nordic countries. It's not just the bears, cold weather, or dog hunters; it's deeper than that. Much deeper. We all know Yoshi likes to pretend to use samurai values, but he messes it up royally. Instead, what he's using are Anglo-Saxon values. The Anglo-Saxons are basically what lead to present day Britain/English language. At the time Beowulf existed and was written down, it was written down in Old English, a type of English that's much more Germanic than today's present English. Just glancing at the text I can see various characters that belong to Norwegian, Icelandic, etc. that just aren't in English anymore. The pronunciations are also much more Germanic, and like I said with the Viking Burial; the culture is more viking like. Beowulf takes place in what seems to be Denmark, and it mentions Sweden and Norway.

So what are these values? Well, from Beowulf alone we see the following values come to light:
- Loyalty
- Pride
- Ancestry
- Manliness, male bonding
- Gore
- Strength
- Reputation
- Generosity
- Longevity
- Death (the briefness of life. Things made out of metal, such as swords, which last from generation to generation are very precious. They also are given hundreds of different names).

Any of that sound familiar? The very poem itself highlights males only - however females have more power than they do in Ginga, it's a very warrior based culture - and you go through generations, learning that such-and-such was the son of King XY who was the son of King YV of X. In fact, Beowulf introduces himself, not as Beowulf, but as the son of Ecgtheow, a noble warrior in his own right, back in his day.
Kings, called ring-bearers, because they often give out rings, etc. to warriors an basically are expected to be generous. They also have pride; when king Hreothgar (sp) can't defeat Grendel, he is ashamed of all the men that have died. All the same, Beowulf's mean have such deep loyalty to Beowulf. Obviously after Grendel's defeat, there's parties with lots and lots of drinking and boasting. Am I the only one who sees Ginga in this?
They also value Gore. Ohhhhh do they value gore. Grendel's death is given in extreme, bloody detail, in which his whole arm is ripped off.

So what does this mean to Ginga and Nordic Countries?
Well Ginga appeals to some history that these countries have. It appeals to their history, however ancient. It would sort of be like anytime there's a Revolution, we Americans tend to have pride for our country and its fight for Independence; we can see this in the French Revolution. Yoshi, however accidentally, basically told an Anglo-Saxon epic with GNG, if he had written in verse we would see it clearly. Most of the stories of this time are about warriors, written as 'FamilyName's Epic' not that different from 'Silver Fang Legend: XYZ'.
I'll add to this as I have further evidence later on in the poem; I know the story of Beowulf but not the exact wordings. If you'd like me to cite some textual evidence I can do so.

[Deleted]

I may be wrong here, but Scandanavia and the Nordic countries aren't really Anglo Saxon are they? I mean sure maybe after the Britain came to spread to Christianity, but before then many were celebrating pagan Germanic views.
Another small thing is, many of these values apply to nearly every culture, especially Germanic pagans. Would you mind describing the funeral to me? I'm a Heathen, so I might be able to clear up any of the viking related things.

[Klomonx]

Aug 28, 2014 10:12:52 GMT -7 @kaiju said:

I may be wrong here, but Scandanavia and the Nordic countries aren't really Anglo Saxon are they? I mean sure maybe after the Britain came to spread to Christianity, but before then many were celebrating pagan Germanic views.
Another small thing is, many of these values apply to nearly every culture, especially Germanic pagans. Would you mind describing the funeral to me? I'm a Heathen, so I might be able to clear up any of the viking related things.

Anglo-Saxon IS British, but they were Germanic people who migrated to the area. Basically some Vikings* moved to a warmer climate, and split off into more groups (such as the Francs, and Germany itself). English is a Germanic Language, and Old English is much closer to it's German and Nordic cousins than present day English (Native English speakers today cannot read Old English, it looks that much like German/Icelandic/Swedish/etc. Middle English is more like Shakespeare, which we can read, with some difficulty).
Beowulf sounds a lot like it was originally pagan; you have to remember the Germanic tribes were an oral culture - this poem was brought down through centuries, and it wasn't until some Catholic/Christian cleric decided to write it down did they perhaps take out the Germanic gods (which were probably very much like Norse gods) and replace them with God. It's also possible that the story changed orally throughout the centuries. Again, there's debate.
Beowulf also specifically mentions Sweden, Finland, and Denmark. The story takes place in Denmark.
* - I'm over simplifying here.

Yes, but all cultures have a sort of difference, this one really values the war, the fight. Everything has to do with honour that has come from fighting, or, the honour from your ancestor's fighting. Which sounds much closer to GNG than any Samurai shit Yoshi tried to throw in.
The funeral is the following: Much loved king dies, they put his body on a boat, fill it with gold, iron, whatever else they can. The poem mentions swords, of course, among other things. They then just set it out to sea, where presumably it will go to an afterlife.
Sometimes they'd simply bury said boat (the whole friggen thing).

Germanic and Norse are basically the same thing, however Norse is usually applied to Sweden, Denmark, Norway. Sometimes Iceland, and (usually by foreigners) Finland.

[Deleted]

That's a funeral all right. I was bringing it up because a lot of times they describe vikings catching the boats on fire to bury the dead, which is false. Bodies are either buried or set ablaze on a pier of wood.
ANYWAY, you could be onto something. I don't know enough about the topic to talk about it. I didn't mean to sound ignorant, just sort of confused I suppose. Oral stories are such a pain in the arse, since nearly every translation and retelling changes it.

[Klomonx]

Aug 28, 2014 10:28:43 GMT -7 @kaiju said:

That's a funeral all right. I was bringing it up because a lot of times they describe vikings catching the boats on fire to bury the dead, which is false. Bodies are either buried or set ablaze on a pier of wood.
ANYWAY, you could be onto something. I don't know enough about the topic to talk about it. I didn't mean to sound ignorant, just sort of confused I suppose. Oral stories are such a pain in the arse, since nearly every translation and retelling changes it.

From my understanding, the Anglo-Saxxons are basically Germanics in the area of Britain. It wasn't until the Norman conquest that what we know as 'English' was more common.
The term Germanic is a bit misleading, and it's probably Swedish, Danish, or Norwegian that were first. Present day German has more of the irregularities compared to the other languages, but the most 'untouched' Germanic language is probably Icelandic. S/D/N all standardized their languages in the early 1900's so their grammar isn't nearly as crazy as present day German.
There was also the tribe of the Francs, which resided in, well, France. I think French is a bit more Latin based than Germanic, but it's not as Latin based as Italian or Spanish, for sure.

[Deleted]

Yes, French is more of a Romantic language, and it's incorporation into Old English at the time of the conquest of 1066 is what makes that language so difficult for modern-day English speakers to comprehend (as it is basically a whole different language). That being said, as far as the peoples of Britain go, there were originally the Britons, then the Angles and the Saxons came along and inhabited the land known as Albion (from which the name England was eventually derived). The Angles and Saxons were two distinct Germanic tribes which merged together and became the Anglo-Saxons. Around this time, there were also travelers from Scandinavia coming into Great Britain and other parts of Europe (not exactly Viking-age at this point, but fairly close to it). There was a fair bit of intermixing between the Anglo-Saxons and the Scandinavians (whom in Britain were mainly Danes). Long story short, it eventually followed that when King William of Normandy (who was also of Scandinavian descent) made his famous conquest, he was essentially conquering other Nordic people who had been mixed fairly strongly with the Anglo-Saxon inhabitants.

That being said, the general character of these people was all fairly distinct and 'northern' in nature, and I agree with the originally proposed thesis that yes, this national character tends to make Ginga highly appealing to people in Nordic countries.

Also, as far as Icelandic goes, it is essentially Old Norse. In Norway, this language was corrupted by influences from other languages (particularly German, though Norwegian is an essentially Germanic language to begin with). Also, while the Francs are a Germanic people, and it can only be assumed that the original French language was more Germanic in character, a couple of hundred years' rule under the Romans as Gaul was enough to stamp that out (only to have it brought back in through Normandy when the Danes set up a permanent settlement in France).

Sorry for the wall of text, but I absolutely love this topic and have many things to say that will most definitely ramble off topic.

[M-92 Mantis]

I have nothing interesting or smurt to add to the language and national history, so I'll just give my two cents.

I feel GNG, or Ginga as a whole, is only more-so like Beowulf because Yoshi fucked up so badly on trying to simulate the samurai ways and culture that he has more of a comparison to another people's storytelling.

Mainly, main characters = super-powerful and hardly have to build their way to the top. Lots of folklore centers around someone who's already a special snowflake or starts out instantly better than everyone else. Most of the time they're always successful and never fail at anything. Gin and Weed are the epitome of that (but that can be said about a ton of other cultures' story-telling). Gin didn't even have any growth like the series constantly narrates to us because he literally just committed mutiny against Ben and was lucky that Ohu followed him when he did so, and after that he became the leader since Ben was okay with being on the sidelines and Riki is hardly even in the series. Weed just had a bit more of a shortcut by people saying he looked like Gin, so he was the next Gin. Both were also perfect in every way in how they fought, never losed, always used some bullshit superjump or method to defeat their enemy, and made everyone around them stunned at how amazing they were. Even then, in a lot of Scandinavian folklore as I know, most of the heroes were so strong because of an enchanted weapon or blessing from a god, not because the narrator was too tired to actually develop them, and they had struggled to the top and now have a story when a contender approaches. But older literature and story-telling almost never focused on the underdog becoming a hero - Greek mythology was a lot like this, too, in that heroes already started out perfect and unstoppable and just won a battle because they're awesome.

Samurai lore focused on exaggeration to make real events sound more romantic, like a lot of other folklore: a warrior who had slain one thousand enemies, the emperor born of a dragon, the warlord who made the earth tremble from the hooves of his endless sea of an army, the woman so beautiful that the cherry blossoms weeped in envy. But again, actual humility, casteing, and over all obedience and the ability to know when to sacrifice yourself or save yourself for further battles was a huge part of the samurai way, and Yoshi never captured it (excepting Gamu, somewhat), so yeah, I'd just say Yoshi is so bad at what he wants to portray that any other culture's way of story-telling seems more fitting in comparison.

[Lukrietz]

It's an interesting topic.

Despite being a Swede, I find it hard to say whether or not Ginga is so popular in Scandinavia because of these "values"; they're pretty widespread values, as @kaiju mentioned. To get a better image of Sweden and Scandinavia's current mentality, one should read up on the Law of Jante, which gives somewhat of an insight of how our society looks like today. In short, I think that in Sweden humility is something very important - it's rude to be boastful, loud, and take a lot of space.

What drew me to Ginga, and other fiction like Redwall and Lord of the Rings as a child, were first off the heroic adventures; and in Ginga, the self-sacrificing characters, and the epic fights. I can see a connection between this and the values Klo mention, but they are also pretty broad. I wish I could give more insight when it comes to the different media that I've seen Swedes enjoy... but I can't say I've seen a great difference in what we enjoy and, say, Americans do? I mean, there are plenty of fiction out there that follows noble and heroic characters, that have fans from several different countries. To me, things such as loyalty, generosity and humility are things that are seen as virtues in pretty much any society.

Oh, but I don't mean to sound dismissive of the theory, I'm only ranting and speculating.

[Klomonx]

Aug 29, 2014 10:23:01 GMT -7 Lukrietz said:

It's an interesting topic.

Despite being a Swede, I find it hard to say whether or not Ginga is so popular in Scandinavia because of these "values"; they're pretty widespread values, as @kaiju mentioned. To get a better image of Sweden and Scandinavia's current mentality, one should read up on the Law of Jante, which gives somewhat of an insight of how our society looks like today. In short, I think that in Sweden humility is something very important - it's rude to be boastful, loud, and take a lot of space.

What drew me to Ginga, and other fiction like Redwall and Lord of the Rings as a child, were first off the heroic adventures; and in Ginga, the self-sacrificing characters, and the epic fights. I can see a connection between this and the values Klo mention, but they are also pretty broad. I wish I could give more insight when it comes to the different media that I've seen Swedes enjoy... but I can't say I've seen a great difference in what we enjoy and, say, Americans do? I mean, there are plenty of fiction out there that follows noble and heroic characters, that have fans from several different countries. To me, things such as loyalty, generosity and humility are things that are seen as virtues in pretty much any society.

Oh, but I don't mean to sound dismissive of the theory, I'm only ranting and speculating.

I don't mean to relate GNG to Sweden/etc.'s Modern Values, which are fairly different from their ancient ones. What I mean is these ancient values have such a grip on the society's backbone that things like GNG appeal to them.

M-92 Mantis I have no faith in Yoshi's ability to do any of this purposefully.

Yes the attributes are fairly generic, but there's something about the warrior culture, let me go into more detail here.
According to Beowulf, ancient 'knights' (thanes) are under the service of the ring-bearers (Kings). Thanes go to war for the King, hold the honour of the King and his kingdom, and pledge their lives to DIE FIGHTING FOR THE KING. The King, meanwhile, bestows gifts upon them, and must be a generous, 'good' man toward the Thanes and their families.
There's also the 'death price', or revenge aspect of their culture.  When someone dies, it is up to the King to execute the killer, or to set a death-price, which is a gold value placed upon the life of the person. But killing someone sets off the chain reaction, because then their King much have revenge. This is very unstable, just think - what if you murder someone form your family? And obviously revenge just breeds more revenge.
There's also the extreme fear of exile, of being alone. Moving ahead to GDW, what happens to Hougen the moment he is alone, exiled from Ohu?

SPOILER: Click to show

He dies.

[Klomonx]

Double Post because it's important.
Bonds between males are important in any war culture; but in Anglo there are two that stand out;
Nephew-Uncle Bonds, Adopted Son bonds.
In Beowulf, he is adopted by Hrothgar as a son, yet is barred from the throne. This is important as the adoption is making Beowulf a kinsmen; that is, any of the revenge that happens will include Beowulf, even if against his King.
Nephew-Uncle bonds are seen mainly in the raising of the children; Hrothgar's throne will be ruled by his children's Uncle until the eldest is old enough to rule. It seems they also play a large part in raising the sons for combat - sound at all like Kurotora and his nephews?
Also of note is that Hrothgar, although described as a 'good king' is also an old king. He can no longer fight, due to his age (he is even demeaned to the point where his appearance is always followed by his wife's instead of other men), and is basically dealing with the fact he can't protect his own kingdom and is sitting around waiting to die (Gin!? or Ben, since if I remember there's some interpretations that say Hrothgar is blind/ing). However, when Grendel's Mother attacks and kills Hrothgar's BFF (seriously he calls him his soul-mate even though up until then we never heard of the guy) instead of letting him mourn, Beowulf gives Hrothgar the ol' 'be a man' speech;
"Wise sir, do not grieve. It is always better
to avenge dear ones than to indulge in mourning.
For every one of us, living in this world
means waiting for our end. Let whoever can
win glory before death. When a warrior is gone,
that will be his best and only bulwark.
So arise, my lord, and let us immediatly
set forth on the trail of this troll-dam.
...
...
...
Endure your troubles today. Bear up
and be the man I expect you to be."
(Lines 1384 -1391 and 1395-1396)
Of course, Hrothgar then leaps onto his horse.

Later on they gaze upon the bloodied severed head of the king's BFF, which I felt was very reminiscent of Bazzet in GNG. (That's not a spoiler, is it? I mean he's there for 2 seconds).

At the end of the poem, Beowulf dies without an heir; something very unusual in a culture where your lineage is pretty damn important. It's also stated that in Beowulf's native land of Geat, up until this point, he wasn't very well known or cared about. He kinda just existed. I kind of feel this parallels a few Ginga characters who are great, but die with no one to carry on their name - like Akatora, John, any of the wolves, etc.

[The Tiger of Kai]

This is really interesting. I know Yoshi has stated several times that his stories were more-so based off of samurai (and possibly samurai legend), but so much of this makes sense, I'm almost starting to deny the samurai-ness of Yoshi's storytelling! And hey, I'm totally cool with that. Many stories are based off of something; there's nothing wrong with taking a bit of inspiration from another story and forming your own basis on it. Really, really cool analysis, Klo!

[Genji]

Aug 28, 2014 10:43:50 GMT -7 Klomonx said:

There was also the tribe of the Francs, which resided in, well, France. I think French is a bit more Latin based than Germanic, but it's not as Latin based as Italian or Spanish, for sure.

The Francs came from Germany but French is indeed Latin based ; it's basically influenced by the two groups, and almost "in-between". But it's even more complicated, as French people called Normans (people from Normandie, who happened to be vikings and descendants of vikings who were accepted by the King of France onto the land if they swore allegiance to him) invaded England at a time, and incorporated the language into Old English. What a nice ragbag, wouldn't you say? (just bringing my poor knowledge of History here.)

As it is, lots of cultures have values in common, and seeing as most of the world is still set with patriarchal ways it's not really all that surprising to come across some similitudes. However, the question is really interesting. But I'll go along with @hougensama on this one : I don't think Yoshi put Anglo-Saxon values in Ginga on purpose.

[Ace]

Aug 29, 2014 17:53:25 GMT -7 Klomonx said:

Aug 29, 2014 10:23:01 GMT -7 Lukrietz said:

I don't mean to relate GNG to Sweden/etc.'s Modern Values, which are fairly different from their ancient ones. What I mean is these ancient values have such a grip on the society's backbone that things like GNG appeal to them.

Interesting thesis, but I must admit that I somewhat disagree with it. To specifically pin GNG's popularity in Scandinavia as having to do with Beowulf is perhaps a bit of a crude argument. In your original argument, you do list these ancient values as affecting the modern Scandinavian population, which obviously have very different standards. The law of Jante is an excellent example of a very strong set of ethics. I would rather argue that the reason for its popularity links with the appeal of the epic. The values you listed in your first post are not exclusive to Beowulf. If you consult Encyclopedia Britannica, the general characteristics of an epic links with: 

An epic may deal with such various subjects as myths, heroic legends, histories, edifying religious tales, animal stories, or philosophical or moral theories.

What struck me when reading the GNG manga was its emphasis on being a "real man". Clearly, Yoshi is trying to install a code of ethics among the predominately male audience. It may be said that other Shounen series do the same thing. Yoshi is following a form that works and which has worked since the Greek oral epics.
Another trait of the epic in GNG is the iconic nature of many of the characters; a good example is Ben, whose primary role is to be a mentor. As Riscal rightly pointed out, Gin technically commits mutiny by subverting Ben's authority via shouting commands at the invasion of the Iga house. If one thinks twice, Ben is not a well-fleshed out character in some aspects because his main objective is simply to be Gin's mentor - to groom him into leadership. Ben reflects those leadership characteristics he wants in Gin: power, wisdom and justice. 
When I read Beowulf during my first term, Grendel was by large the most interesting character (which is perhaps also why John Gardner re-wrote Beowulf from his perspective). Epics are not known for their amazing character development. It is rather like Riscal pointed out that these super-heroes are born with these fantastic powers/abilities/morals, but experience very little personal growth as the story progress. I think the character in GNG to experience the most progression is probably Hyena, and even if we know Sniper's motivation, we never get to learn if he ever believed in Riki's mission. In contrast, did Gin really change from the beginning to the end of the series? Personally, I would say he grew very little. He was proclaimed to have potential due to his tiger stripes from the moment he was born and he did not let down those expectations. Instead, when Gohei is disappointed in Gin, the audience sympathises with Gin/Daisuke and finds Gohei unreasonable. 


A final point  on the popularity in Scandinavia. As people have rightly pointed out Denmark, Sweden, Norway and to some extent Finland have a lot in common when it comes to language, but certainly also when it comes to history. The reason why the series made it so big in these countries and not in the USA, I would not contribute to the linkage with Viking morals - even though there certainly is an idolisation of that culture in Scandinavia - but would like also to consider the availability of the series. I cannot offer a definite answer to how the series found its way to Scandinavia, as far as I remember, it first came out in Sweden and due to proximity of the Scandinavian countries, it quickly spread. Personally, the reason why I picked up the series was because it was about dogs, lol. The opening was never translated and even if the title was translated to Silver Fang, the distributors never tried to specifically "Scandinaviafy" it. Even if I could not pin point that the series was Japanese, I knew from the opening and title that it certainly was not Danish. I don't know why it never really caught on in English speaking countries, my guess might be that it was simply too gorey. I'm still surprised my parents let me watch the cut version when I was around 10-11 years old. Denmark has always been a tad more liberal on well.... just about everything. 
So that's my two cents, sorry for starting a major lecture, but I thought it was an interesting debate.