Characters' strengh in the anime

[Deleted]

So I just finished watching the last episode of GDW this morning, and I was thinking about something...

A common problem among shonens is that, after a while, the relative strenght of the characters doesn't make sense anymore. Dragonball is the best case: after Frieza, becoming a super sayan is no big deal anymore, and even non-sayan characters like Piccolo become stronger than a standard SSY. Not to mention Cell and Majin-bu... Same thing in Bleach, where after Rukia's story, all the captains recieve a massive power-up, and again after the Espada saga. Same thing for Naruto.

And M-92 Mantis, this applies to Beast Wars too.

This is something that bothers me every time, but how does Ginga fare in this regard? Let's see... Note that I haven't read the GDW manga, and I'm only on volume 2 of GNG, so my knowledge is limited to the anime and correct me if I make any mistake. Unfortunately it's hard to directly compare the old generation (Gin, John, Akame...) with the new generation (Weed, Jerome, Kyoshiro...) for two reasons: first, there isn't any direct fight between old and new gen; and second the old generation in GDW is... Well, old. But let's try this nontheless.

Let's start from Riki, my fave character in the Ginga universe (just sayin'). In GNG it's said that Gohei is an excellent trainer, and Riki is his best dog. In fact Riki can defeat any other dog in a fight, so we know that he's one of the strongest dogs in Japan. We can use this as a reference.

Now, let's consider Benizakura, by definition "the strongest dog in the world". Clearly true against other dogs, but we even see him defeat a bear by himself without great trouble (until he gets injured). And not a regular bear, it's general Mosa. In my opinion this makes him far stronger than Riki in a fight, and nobody gets even close.

Now, how abou Gin? In GNG he's still a pup, so clearly not at the same level as the others for the whole Akakabuto story. But in the final battle he fights at the same level of his father (or similar), and I imagine he's grown even stronger in the following years. Even Gohei says that Gin had more potential than Riki, so I assume he grew stronger than him.

Now for Gin's generals, Akame and John. John is defeated by Riki in GNG. If Gin is stronger than Riki after Akakabuto, then he's definitely stronger than John in GDW. And at the beginning of GDW Hogen appears to be stronger than John, or at the same level at least. It's hard to know exactly how strong Akame is. We know he's more or less at the same level as Kurojacki, and if Tesshin is also at the level of his father, let's say they're more or less the same (but Akame has more experience).

This is important because John is the only one, in the anime at least, to fight against a new gen character: Karakiri. The fight is unfair, but if John had been at full strengh, it's realistic that he would have won. But Hiro also defeats Kakamiri, although it was a close call, and is clearly inferior to Hogen. We don't know exactly how strong Hiro is, but I'm guessing he's really good even if he's old. In my opinion, slightly weaker than John. This shows that even after 14 or something years, dogs in the Ginga universe are still good fighters, so they age slowly. Gin is younger than John, and this will come in handy later...

What about Jerome, my fave new character in GDW? He easily kills Lector and Thunder, and if it wasn't for the bullet in his leg, I think he would have won against Hogen too, who's the strongest among the enemies. In my opinion, this makes Jerome the strongest dog in the new Ohu army. And the P4 fight shows that. Because even Weed, although he uses the Battoga, only gets a close and lucky victory against Hogen. But we'll come back to that later.

As for Tesshin, in my opinion he's underrated. He's Kurojaki's son, he's chosen by Gin to be his successor, he knows the Battoga somehow, defeats Kite easily. He doesn't fight much, but he seems to be the only one almost at the same level of Jerome, since everyone else has trouble defeating the generals. He's beyond doubts stronger than Kyoushiro, who isn't weak himself. He remains superior to Weed until the final battle.

Finally, weed. It's hard to guess how strong he is, because after each fight he gets way stronger than he's supposed to. During his fight against Hogen he is slightly inferior in my opinion, and he's lucky to win. But more or less, they're at the same level. But compared to Gin? Both Gin and Riki can do the Battoga multiple times and still fight, while Weed is KO after a single one. Also, Riki's Battoga heavily wounds Akakabuto, whille Gin's decapitates him. But Weed only wounds Hogen, and there's no way I'm going to believe Hogen is tougher than Akakabuto. So Weed's Battoga is light years behind Gin's and Riki's.

So Weed is strong (as much as Hogen), but considering that dogs in Giga age slowly (as shown by John), Gin is still definitely stronger. Therefore, if Gin had challenged Hogen 1vs1, he would have won easily. This makes him better than even Jerome, who was winning by measure. Also, Jerome doesn't know the Battoga.

TLDR, in my opinion the strongest character in the GNG and GDW anime are:

- Benizakura - Gin (after Akakabuto) - Riki - Jerome - Hogen - Weed (after Hogen) - Akame - Tesshin - John - everyone else.

What do you think?

[Klomonx]

Yoshi has canonly stated that 'Riki is the strongest dog ever guys' followed by Gaia (somehow Yoshi says that Gaia could take down Akakabuto all on his own... Riki needed a whole friggen army so how this means he's second place is beyond me). Poor Beni just gets the title and not the regard, as far as Yoshi goes, which makes no sense as Yoshi said Beni was his favourite?
When does John fight Kamakiri - if that's who you mean, as Hiro is only shown really fighting him and losing against Hougen. However it's speculatory that, in the anime at least, had Reika not been used as a human shield Hiro would have ripped Hougen's balls off, at least.
I kinda wish he had >_>;

Let's not forget Ben, who also shows some of his strength - he can lift a boulder that's roughly twice his size up...with his head. If we assume Ben is about 115 lb, and the boulder is ~230 lb., we can now look at other things the other dogs do...
I remember Akakabuto is about the size of a T-rex, according to Yoshi, so ~40 ft (12 m) long; 15 to 20 ft (4.6 to 6 m) tall.
In the anime, Benizakura picks up an adult bull, which are between 500 and 1,000 kilograms (1,100 and 2,200 lb).
Gin is able to LIFT Benizakura in the air, quite some distance. Benizakura is a Tosa, yes?, so he's about 130 to 200 lb (60 to 90 kg).

Ben can lift at least double his weight, with his head alone. Benizakura can lift at most (as he wasn't able to lift the bear but could drag him) 2,200 lb. That's at least 17 times his weight.
Gin is able to lift him, somehow, even though Gin isn't fully grown yet and is probably between 70–85 pounds (32–39 kg). So he can lift a little more than double his weight, at the least.
How big is a trex? Probably more than that. But no one lifts Akakabuto...however Gin severs his spinal cord in order to tear his head off. Gin is only about a year at this point - he still has a lot of growing to do, as compared to the others.
So I'd have to say Gin has a good standing of being the strongest - how the hell he was beat by Hougen is beyond me.

[Kit]

Honestly - and I'm going by the manga to decide this - Yoshi seems to have changed the rules of the Battouga. I think it was decided too OP to do an entire other series with and have any justification of it being long, so he added the physical tax to temper it a bit. Later in the GDW manga, Gin does it at least twice, and he passes out, as well, which tells me the 'rules' were changed, and Weed isn't any weaker, per-say. But remember that Gin was at least an entire 6 months older than Weed, during his final battle. (This is up for debate, because Yoshi messed up his continuity.) This means he was fuller, bigger, stronger, and definitely more experienced from Gohei's training than Weed, who had grown up with only his mother around and had to learn by ear, on the move.

As for strength being off the charts in general, yeah, this is a Shounen problem, but Ginga sometimes seems to take it to extremes. Characters are hyped up so much that by all rights there's no way they should be able to die the way they do. But in its favor, I do think most of the strong characters who die do so because of the "heart vs heart with brains" predicament. The Ohu soldiers are always praised for being justice incarnate, but I'm not sure who can deny some of the strongest ones are... impulsive. There are many things John could have tried, to lure Hougen away from Hiro and Reika, but he wanted to take a bite out of Hougen for humiliating him, more than anything. Unrelated people got killed, and Hougen could have easily still tracked those two down if he'd decided to, impaired as they were.

(In the anime) Jerome decided to leave an infected bullet in his leg because he was inflicting some irrational emo punishment upon himself over redeeming himself by being useful to any of his new friends. Even though he got a rare opportunity to surprise Hougen and take him out, his irrational decision instead not only made his plan fail, but could have easily gotten both GB and Weed killed along with him. If Hougen hadn't once again simply lost interest, he would have easily killed GB right there, and none of their friends would have been able to stop and dig Weed out.

Benizakura was quite easily one of the strongest dogs in the world, as you said, and easily beat up even Gin. But after he got injured, he turned impulsive and decided it was his time to go down in a blaze of glory, rather than letting the others handle a now-injured Mosa. He probably would have lived, otherwise.

As for Riki, his death is slightly varied by anime and manga, but ultimately, it said very early on in GNG (might've been manga-only?) that you do NOT stand close to a dead bear until you are 100% sure. Akakabuto had gotten up so many times they were sure he must be dead throughout his history, that everyone assumed he was a demon resurrecting himself. He did it countless times in the final battle alone, and Gin ultimately left the humans because he knew a dinky Murata rifle wasn't going to work, so why would Riki assume it did, this time? And then in the anime, he went so far as to jump straight into Akakabuto's attacks twice and get himself killed.

Gin didn't die in GDW, but I still want to use it as an example, because it was a catalyst for other deaths. (Not that I'm directly blaming him.) He made a point to seriously underestimate Hougen, rather than even playing it safe, and let him walk straight in and capture them. People can blame Reika all they want, but Gin was going to lose, either way, way before Akame ever got back with reinforcements that didn't exist. Whether Gin was overconfident or just wanted to make a point about how kind Ohu was in the hopes Hougen would see the light and walk away, I don't know, but it was still not smart and caused the entire mess.

I'm probably missing quite a few big deaths, but those are the ones I remember being mentioned here. So I don't think Ginga is able to rely completely on physical strength, and many of the over-the-top strong characters lose from being... not too smart. I know that's a bit off-topic, but ultimately their physical strength tends to either be ridiculous in its fluctuations and rules, or told, but not shown. Either way it can be hard to judge on its own. I think because it's a war story, pragmatic strength plays a big part in a lot of things. This is where I think a lot of the characters fall flat and end up getting in irreparable situations that their physical strength doesn't help much with.

So I guess my final verdict for strongest would probably be Weed. He has an innate strength that he does his best to work with against dangerous odds, and shows an intelligence in assessing a situation to approach it in a way that's best for the most people possible, because he genuinely cares about all of them. I think that's the sign of an amazing individual, on multiple levels, and I can't really recall him getting anyone into any situation he couldn't get them out of, just by being dumb or impulsive.

I left out some characters mentioned, such as Tesshin, simply because they don't ever seem to do much. We're just told they're amazing, but don't actually see them do much, so I don't have much opinion either way.

Edit: I apologize if I annoyed anyone with my blunt analysis of some characters. I didn't mean to come across like that. I just realized how blunt and accusing they might sound.

[Deleted]

Klomonx - If Yoshi says so... I guess I believe him? Until his death Riki was stronger than Gin, I just assumed that Gin got better because he was still a pup during the Akakabuto battle. If he didn't (as Yoshi says), then Riki's still stronger. Thanks for the info! Also, who is Gaia?

From the anime I still think Benizakura on a completly differen't level from anyone else. He doesn't only lift a bull, but he takes Mosa down in a single hit. He was so strong, that Yoshi could have decided to kill him because he was too OP. At least that's what I think after seeing the anime, is the manga any different?

If we disregard what Yoshi said about Riki being the strongest then I agree, Gin has a chance of being better than Beni. Not in GNG of course, but he could have gotten better in the years ahead. But there's no way of knowing for sure, since Beni's dead.

Ben is strong, but in my opinion, not as strong as the others. First because he isn't Gin's general, and according to the shonen way of thinking, higher ranks are stronger. Second because after Akame he's basically blink. I can't really remember any fights he was in, but he seems to be only slightly stronger than the Kai brothers. Which yes, are very strong, but not really at the top. Maybe at the same level as John.

Kit - I've never read the manga (I'm only on volume 2 of GNG), so I don't know. It's possible that Yoshi changed the rules of the Battouga mid-game, and then, it would be impossible to compare old gen and old gen. So I just assumed that Weed isn't nearly as strong as Riki/Gin, mainly because he wasn't trained by Gohei and still has a lot to learn. And yes, Weed was younger, so maybe he improved as years passed. I have no idea, what does the manga say?

And yes, I see your point. Main characters make stupid decisions, and die in even more stupid ways. My reaction was often:   Y U be so stoopid! If we account for stupidity, then the standings would be different. I'd still put Riki up there, close to Hougen (who makes some bad decisions, but overall he isn't dumb). Akame would rise, Beni and Jerome would disappear. I assumed a Jerome at full strengh, with a bullet in his leg he's obviously not able to fight properly. I like him overall, he just makes this really really dumb decision to leave it there. To make things easier, I just compared physical strengh without considering the brain.

In the GNG anime, I got the feeling that Riki died to protect Gohei. If he hadn't shown up, Riki would have lived. I'm not sure if the manga is differen't, or if my memories are wrong.

Finally, I don't agree with you on Weed. Then again, I'm only talking about the anime, if the manga's different than forgive me. He's so, SO stupid. Letting Hougen live? COME ON DOG. He's like Gin, but worse.

Yes other characters don't do much. Even then, I tried to include the ones that seemed to be logically the strongest.

[Kit]

@bucciamarcia Ehhh, it's hard to compare older Gin with Weed, honestly, just because he moves aside for him so much, in the manga. But I can tell you that things play out very differently and the anime only followed the bare minimum of the plotline. Weed tends to like fighting with his friends as a team, rather than take up as much spotlight as Gin always ended up doing, but I actually like that and don't see it as a weakness.

Oh, no worries. Being smart in battle and emergencies, especially in a leadership situation, is just my opinion of strength, over physical. I don't have much opinion on the physical strengths, since Yoshi likes hyping them up as the strongest ever, and then contradicting himself, so I just decided to take that approach. Like I said, I know it's a bit off.

Yeah, I think that was the idea behind Riki's anime death, too. It just didn't sell me, since he always handled situations a little better, before that. In the manga, he and Gohei were just caught by complete surprise because Akakabuto attacked too fast, and they both got hit, with Riki taking the brunt. Gin was too small and so was barely missed.

I'm fine if you don't agree about Weed. I personally do agree with him letting Hougen go, especially in the manga scene where he was crying and begging and left quietly, without a big show about killing them off, before getting shot by that one dude. But I'm well aware I'm in the minority, and that's fine. I understand why. I don't think it was stupid, but that's me, of course.

(Also Gaia is the villain in the 2nd arc of the GNG manga, which the anime never covered.)

Klomonx Where did Yoshi say that?! Jeez, my first time hearing that ridiculousness. Though I guess Gaia could use the Zetsu Tenrou Battouga, but still... Gin only succeeded with that because Akakabuto was blinded and worn down.

[Deleted]

Fighting with friends instead of alone is a smart move yes, and if Weed does that than bravo. In the anime, I have the feeling that he's worse than Gin in everything you dislike him for. Go ahead and scanlate GDW quickly so I can get a better picture of the differences.

So in the manga, Riki let his guard down? That wouldn't sell me either, he knows better. His death in the anime is far more glorious, and it made sense. Akakabuto was about to kill Gohei, and there wasn't much else he could do if he wanted to save him. He didn't have the time to think. Gohei was the dumb one here, he should have shot Akakabuto again immediatly.

I don't think that Ginga is that bad when hyping characters. Of course it does it sometimes, but it's still half-realistic to me. Strong characters remain strong, and apart from Weed, they don't get ridiculous power-ups for no reasons. I don't see a lot of contradictions: in GNG at least, consider that they recruit dogs from all over the country, so when someone is introduced as "the most amazing living thing ever", I assume they're just referring to "the strongest dog in the region". Which could be true. I've seen much worse in other shonens.

I would have killed Hougen without mercy, but don't mind me, I'm a heartless bastard.

Yours is an interesting point, hmm. Rate the characters not by their strengh, but their intelligence. Who do you think would win?

[Kit]

Jan 30, 2015 6:01:10 GMT -7 @bucciamarcia said:

Yours is an interesting point, hmm. Rate the characters not by their strengh, but their intelligence. Who do you think would win?

Hmmm... Not sure. They all have their really really ridiculous moments as far as being dumb. But I'd probably go with Weed or Ben. I felt like both were really good leaders, by my standards and tastes, despite some 'ehhh...' moments, that every character has, anyway. I felt like they made good decisions for the group, without letting their judgement get too clouded or impulsive. (I know people hate Weed's decisions, but I never have on those big ones everyone points to.)

And hah hah, we have the original Japanese ones up, so you can look, but not read, if you'd like to get a general idea. But GNG is around... halway-ish done, and GDW is freakin' 60 volumes long, so that'll take a LONG time.

[Deleted]

I agree, most if not all characters have dumb moments, far beyond the usual "if the protagonist doesn't do something really supid the story's going to be over in a chapter or two".

I agree with Ben, good leader overall, not so sure about Weed. At least in the anime, he's way too soft. Although he makes some clever decisions, like raise an army before confronting Hogen. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because I haven't read the manga.

Based only on the anime, I'd also add Akame and Tesshin (the latter because he doesn't have enough screentime to do anything stupid - or anything at all); if we talk about intelligence during combat, I think Kurojaki was the only one smart enough to take a knife. GG Kurojaki, you win.

And finally, Riki. Raising an army of a thousand dogs isn't an easy feat, and coordinating them is even harder. Even if, from what you tell me, in the manga he throws away his life for a stupid mistake.

[Kit]

Akame ultimately doesn't seem to do much, if you analyze it. He's called a strategist, but I honestly can't think of a single strategy he's ever come up with. At least on his own. It's always Gin or Ben thinking of everything, and he takes a huge backseat in GDW. He's there enough to have a presence, but he didn't seem indispensable to Weed. Same with the other tactician, Jerome, really. They label themselves that, but then all you hear from them is, "Let's trust in the leader..." or "The leader decides..." no matter the situation. Like... it's your job to make tactics and help with them! Y u no do it?!

Kurojaki ran with scissors, though.

If I'm being honest, I really don't think Riki was a good leader, or as great as everyone thought. I don't recall him doing anything that impressed me. He didn't recruit anyone, Ben and Gin did; he just stood on a rock and made two speeches while everyone cried from his manly man vibes for no reason; he didn't seem to have any truly useful spotlight moments, aside from killing two incredibly minor bears that any main Ohu soldier could have taken down. Not to mention, the final battle was a freakin' massacre and he seemed to be mostly standing around doing nothing but looking epic, and not bothering to come up with anything to minimize casualties or anything, aside from pulling the Battouga out of nowhere at the end. Why didn't you do that earlier, dude? Final battle aside, you've been fighting Akakabuto for like 6 years... If you had that, why is Akakabuto alive?

Riki also seemed to ultimately fail everything important he tried. He went in to fight Akakabuto alone, because... reasons. I guess gathering that huge army was a whim and he got bored? Never understood that. His plan failed, so he got desperate, missed, and survived by sheer luck. And it was a doppelganger, anyway, so it wasn't even as strong as Akakabuto. Then he fought the real Akakabuto with everyone - barely grazed him once, missed once, failed with his Battouga, and then died. So... it honestly seemed like they could have done the whole thing without him, because he didn't do anything that contributed enough, aside from teaching Gin the Battouga. Which he should have done right away and been done with it.

I dunno. It's just my opinion, obviously, but I feel like almost all the Ginga characters - especially the ones that tend to be more popular - are faux action heroes. They give the illusion of doing useful things and being cool, but if you analyze what they've contributed, it's actually quite minimal.

[Deleted]

Akame used poisonous spikes in battle, that was a fine tactic. Not only that, he even knows the cure to that poison. Besides Kurojaki, as far as I can remember he's the only one who uses tools to fight. Then yes, after he was recruited, he doesn't really do much... He helps to kill Madara (was it Madara?). But considering that GNG and GDW don't give a lot of time to "secondary" characters, I try to work with what I have.

I don't think Jerome never did something clever. The whole tactic to take down P4 was brilliant, and I like his Macchiavelli way of thinking that "the end justifies the means". He thinks about the consequences of his actions, he's ready to take the blame and hatred of everyone because he knows what needs to be done. Now that I think about it, he's a bit like Itachi in Naruto. I like that.

Riki went to fight Akakabuto alone, yeah that was stupid, maybe he wanted to distract the main bear army and sneak from behind? Dunno. And while he stayed behind at the beginning of the fight, I like to believe he was giving orders off-screen.

In the final battle, he was one of the only 3-4 dogs (if we include Ben) who managed to hurt Akakabuto, among a thousand or so. So he's much stronger than anyone but his son, at least (Ben only scratches him, and Akatora dies seconds after attacking). Gin only succeeded in the final blow because Akakabuto was already a walking corpse at that moment.

I agree that in GNG, Riki's contribution was minimal, but that's just the screen time. Riki became the leader of Ohu in a matter of months, so during that time he must have done something spectacular. While Gin and Ben recruited most of the dogs (I can't recall the actual numbers, but I think some came from other sources too), Riki was the mastermind behind that. And leading a pack of 1,000+ dogs must require a huge charisma, so even if it isn't shown in the manga, I assume he has it just because everyone follows him.

[kaiarmydog]

Well, to be honest I think that yoshi just overpowered most of his characters and made quite a few of them stupid. Or he just threw them away, by this I mean they introduce new characters and go "Wow they're amazingly strong! They should join us!!" And then they do a bit of stuff, and suddenly are as much use a chocolate tea pot and aren't that good as fighters. I can't even start to list how many characters this has happened to.

[Kit]

Jan 31, 2015 2:55:55 GMT -7 @bucciamarcia said:

Akame used poisonous spikes in battle, that was a fine tactic. Not only that, he even knows the cure to that poison.

Maybe in theory. But he poisoned people he didn't know, without bothering to get any info or facts other than "they were seen with one of our dead guys." That isn't intelligent - it's insane. Not only that, but the antidote grows in Kouga territory - meaning they always have easy access to it, and he does not. So really, it seems like an absolutely useless technique.

I don't think Jerome never did something clever. The whole tactic to take down P4 was brilliant, and I like his Macchiavelli way of thinking that "the end justifies the means". He thinks about the consequences of his actions, he's ready to take the blame and hatred of everyone because he knows what needs to be done. Now that I think about it, he's a bit like Itachi in Naruto. I like that.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Jerome's plan was to throw people at a creature that they had no way of knowing the extent of its strength, and hope their deaths would work out. Again, that just seems insane, to me. Surprise, surprise, it didn't work, and other people had to clean up his mess. He didn't feel anything about it, either way, until he went through some random 180 we were supposed to accept as character development, when he threw a tantrum with not knowing what to do with his life because Weed didn't let him die like he wanted and forced him to think about other people, for once. I never once saw him as anyone who accepts his mistakes rationally or tries to better himself from them.

In the final battle, he was one of the only 3-4 dogs (if we include Ben) who managed to hurt Akakabuto, among a thousand or so. So he's much stronger than anyone but his son, at least (Ben only scratches him, and Akatora dies seconds after attacking). Gin only succeeded in the final blow because Akakabuto was already a walking corpse at that moment.

Akatora still accomplished more, imo, by actually managing to blind Akakabuto. Plus he was the one who saved Ben's life, where Riki had just failed. Ben also held Akakabuto still, whereas Riki would have missed worse than he did, otherwise, and not even knocked the bear down for everyone.

I agree that in GNG, Riki's contribution was minimal, but that's just the screen time. Riki became the leader of Ohu in a matter of months, so during that time he must have done something spectacular. While Gin and Ben recruited most of the dogs (I can't recall the actual numbers, but I think some came from other sources too), Riki was the mastermind behind that. And leading a pack of 1,000+ dogs must require a huge charisma, so even if it isn't shown in the manga, I assume he has it just because everyone follows him.

That's the problem, though. I don't care how much other characters or Yoshi tell me he's amazing, I want to see it. If I don't see it for myself, why should I believe it, or care? I'm not going to love a character just because I'm told to, even by the author, right? I need to form my own opinion of him, through what he's actually doing and saying - not theoretically doing and saying. And then when Riki actually did do things, he failed them. So I just personally don't see why I should like or respect him as a character.

Again, none of this is supposed to be disrespectful to your opinions, or anything. I'm just debating. My bias is probably in there, though, so I apologize for that. I don't mean it against your thoughts or opinions.

[Deleted]

Jan 31, 2015 16:13:07 GMT -7 Kit said:

Maybe in theory. But he poisoned people he didn't know, without bothering to get any info or facts other than "they were seen with one of our dead guys." That isn't intelligent - it's insane. Not only that, but the antidote grows in Kouga territory - meaning they always have easy access to it, and he does not. So really, it seems like an absolutely useless technique.

I'm not sure about that. I don't know any of Akame's backgrond, but I suppose he grew up in a permanent war. In that case it's perfectly understandable that he dosn't bother to gather more intel on Ben, human psychology works the same. Actually, he realizes his mistake far more quickly than an averge persone would.

Oh right, I forgot the antidote thing. But as far as I remember I don't think the Kouga know about this poison, so they wouldn't know about the antidote either. And poisons with rare or no antidote are common in real life (think of cyanide), perhaps they couldn't find anything better than that.

Jan 31, 2015 16:13:07 GMT -7 Kit said:

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Jerome's plan was to throw people at a creature that they had no way of knowing the extent of its strength, and hope their deaths would work out. Again, that just seems insane, to me. Surprise, surprise, it didn't work, and other people had to clean up his mess. He didn't feel anything about it, either way, until he went through some random 180 we were supposed to accept as character development, when he threw a tantrum with not knowing what to do with his life because Weed didn't let him die like he wanted and forced him to think about other people, for once. I never once saw him as anyone who accepts his mistakes rationally or tries to better himself from them.

In the anime, I had the feeling that Jerome knew what he was doing. Perhaps he was taught that tactic by the humans? And it almost worked, that's better than anyone in Ohu could do. Does the manga say anything about how strong P4 was compared to other dogs/creatures? Because from what I know, I'd put him only slightly below Akakabuto. The reason behind this: I suppose that P4 is stronger than Benizakura, but Benizakura is stronger than Mosa, who is stronger than an average bear. So, almost killing P4 while losing only 3 dogs seems at least a decent result.

Yeah, about the lack of a decent character development, this is a common theme troughout GNG/GDW. Is there really any character development at all, anywhere (except Gin/Weed a little bit)? I'm trying to work with what I've got, here.

Jan 31, 2015 16:13:07 GMT -7 Kit said:

Akatora still accomplished more, imo, by actually managing to blind Akakabuto. Plus he was the one who saved Ben's life, where Riki had just failed. Ben also held Akakabuto still, whereas Riki would have missed worse than he did, otherwise, and not even knocked the bear down for everyone.

Akatora somehow survived after having his chest pierced but Akakabuto's fang, which he didn't manage to avoid. Huge luck there (or plot armor, if you prefer). But as kaiarmydog rightfully says, some character are introduced as amazing, do some stuff, and disappiear. So it isn't easy to say who's stronger than who. When does he show his strengh? He seems to be more or less at the same level as Ben, but not as strong as Moss (from the hunting scene the episode after Moss' recruitment).

Okay, maybe you're right and Ben deserves more credit than I gave him in my opening post. I just read the manga chapter where it says that he's the 2nd strongest dog in the pack after Riki (right?). What do you think?

Jan 31, 2015 16:13:07 GMT -7 Kit said:

That's the problem, though. I don't care how much other characters or Yoshi tell me he's amazing, I want to see it. If I don't see it for myself, why should I believe it, or care? I'm not going to love a character just because I'm told to, even by the author, right? I need to form my own opinion of him, through what he's actually doing and saying - not theoretically doing and saying. And then when Riki actually did do things, he failed them. So I just personally don't see why I should like or respect him as a character.

We have different points of view, here. You believe what is shown in the manga, and I believe the narrator/story/charcters. Since there is often little consistency between the two, it's a bit confusing. So if Yoshi says that Riki is the strongest dog in the pack, I just assume it's true and try to figure out why.

Jan 31, 2015 16:13:07 GMT -7 Kit said:

Again, none of this is supposed to be disrespectful to your opinions, or anything. I'm just debating. My bias is probably in there, though, so I apologize for that. I don't mean it against your thoughts or opinions.

Sure, of course. I respect your opinions, and it's always fun to talk about a show I like so much. ^^ You also know the Ginga universe far better than I do, so you're telling me a lot of stuff I didn't know before.

[kaiarmydog]

I agree with the both of you, however the whole Riki is the best thing is weird if you ask me. I mean really? Everyone is now gonna cry because he's so manly even though he isn't as great as he was supposed to be, he's also a rubbish father in my opinion. But that could be for many reasons that he acts the way he does, maybe it's to make Gin stronger or something. Also I just found Jerome annoying, he's so arrogant at times and as you guys said his character development was terrible and it annoyed me how he absolutely loved weed but didn't listen to him many times. Honestly all I do is complain about characters

[Kit]

@bucciamarcia Nah, you bring up some good points, that I honestly used to agree with, before I started writing more and learning how to analyze characters and storytelling a little better. Yoshi's works in general - but especially Ginga - are things that need to just be taken at face value... But I can't do it... I can't stop the over-analyzing...

Nothing really comes to mind with P4. I just vaguely remember the manga saying he was supposed to be an experiment for organ donation for human medical research, so he had all kinds of genes in him to try and stabilize the new organs to healthy levels, or something... I guess by B movie logic, having a bunch of different parts in you would make you stronger, but with thinking realistically, it just seems like he'd be really sick all the time, if even alive.

I honestly can't think of any good character development that wasn't instantaneous... Maybe in his other works, but I haven't read those outside of translating.

Akatora shows he's an excellent fighter, in every manga battle, but I agree that it's never really spotlighted stuff. His attack of just launching at Akakabuto was because he already knew he was going to die, and was limited, with his wound. In the manga, he'd had that eye wound for most of the battle, and didn't receive it right before his death, like in the anime. So he'd kinda been slowly bleeding out for hours, and wasn't doing too well by the point he sacrificed himself. He also got torn almost completely in half by Akakabuto, on his way to his eye, instead of just poked in the throat like in the anime. So it's pretty impressive he followed through and still ripped out his opponent's eye, successfully.

Ben probably was the second strongest dog before Gin and Benizakura showed up, yeah. He was able to beat up Sniper, who was second-in-command, and took down one of Akakabuto's elite bodyguards pretty much on his own, in the final battle, despite his sight fluctuating in and out. Plus, he did it by flipping the thing over his shoulder like a rag doll. If that's not hilariously cool, I don't know what is.

And no worries, I just love over-analyzing, so it always seems like I'm hating on things, when I'm not really meaning to. I love debating, since it allows me to expand my view to a more well-rounded one, with outside input, and sort out my own thoughts and feelings better.

---

kaiarmydog I honestly agree. All Ginga fathers seem to be awful ones, truth be told... But that's a whole other debate. And I hate Jerome with a passion for many reasons, but those are definitely some of them.